Cookie Notice - paragraph amended at 00:00, 31 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.182.80, He has expressed considerable accusatory disdain for the Mexican authorities and their airport and believes that their share of blame for the disaster has never been properly acknowledged. His flight manager had promised to For more information, please see our When I first started reading the links, I thought they were just to the left of 23R. It is like this crash never happened. Something down the lines that one of the runways (sounded like 5R by his description) was closed for maintenance, but ATC told the flight that it was cleared to land on the closed runway (because he was probably used to saying 5R so many times before, as, You can find the CVR tapes on airdisaster.com. Airport overviews from the air or ground, Tails and Winglets comments sorted by Best Top New Controversial Q&A Add a Comment . He was defending his company by blaming the pilots. Follow. There is no official report that we know of that gives any credence to this rumor. Western Airlines Flight 2605 Crash With CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder). Accident, incident and crash related photos, Air to Air Sep 3 - Sep 4. Airliners.net is the leading community for discovering and sharing high-quality aviation photography. LAST WORDS SAIF BY FIRST OFFICER: BRACE CHARLES! By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. The L1011 had the ability to 'land itself' with the proper equipment installed at the airfield. Western Airlines Flight 2605 CVR Crash Recording, Scan this QR code to download the app now. The system was apparently adjusted soon after with help from US authorities, this around the same time the US assisted with producing explicit instructions on the "side step" manouver for Mexico presumably so pilot error won't cause another accident but also (less cynically stated) to make airtravel safer - will need to find sources for this. Reichel was described as tired or unfit and he said so at one point in the cockpit. Do we know this is correct? What time is it in Saint-Ismier? Our large helicopter section. that would have shown the ILS inaccuracy. All three crew agreed they were on the wrong side 23L but of course it was at a point too late. - paragraph added at 20:21 + amended at 20:23, 19 December 2019 (unsigned contributions) by 173.120.214.74, - section created at 15:12, 22 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.214.124. an average person who is tired. SquisherDa (talk) 10:16, 24 October 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]. He was concerned about their work and Key details are the same: 23L was closed, 23R was the open runway with a NOTAM many days before. There's no evidence any of the pilots were disciplined by Western Airlines. This accident, incidentally, occured 18 years after the crash of 2605 which investigators also pointed out altitude callouts, and fatigue. But then, with fog-banks etc giving them problems, visual contact was with 23L but not 23R; they reckoned they had slightly overdone the lateral separation and moved left to correct it, and so lined up with 23L . ed the knowledge to deal with the human aspect identified The same sort of conditions facing Gilbert, Reichel and Walsh in Mexico City in '79: https://www.airlinereporter.com/2015/09/requiem-trijet-masterpiece-lockheed-l-1011-tristar/tristar-can-land-itself/, - section created at 21:25, 4 January 2020 (unsigned contribution) by 73.61.11.230, George B. Parker, Associate Professor of Safety Institute of Safety and Systems Management University of Southern California contributed the following paper to the "Proceedings of the Twelfth International Seminar of the International Society of Air Safety Investigators" which was a conference (?) This page was generated at 03:03. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westernes_Flight_2605, http://aviation-safety.net/database/?id=19791031-0, http://books.google.com/books?id=8BVpage&q&f=false, http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fod.main/130485/, http://tvnews.vanderbilt.edu/program.pl?ID=57025, http://web.archive.org/web/200910220/blackbox.html, http://www.diecastaircraftforum.com/-tapes-cd.html, http://www.taxiways.de/DC-10/accident/N903WA.html, If this is your first visit, be sure to percent. Information wanted on Western Airlines flight 2605. Can we correlate these similarities to previous and future accidents at that time of the DC-10? Apparently the official transcript is not quite correct so I'll put my interpretation in the captions. Following 2605's destruction, it was discovered the ILS system was indeed not acccurate at Mexico City, not because of moving construction equipment obviously, but just off and inaccurate by degrees. Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.61.11.102 (talk) 22:05, 4 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply], - section created (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.148.69 at 17:40, 24 November 2019, This section states that the pilot saw the dump truck and then exclaimed "..Jesus Christ". Excerpt from Section 1.8.2 from the ICAO Circular 173-AN/109: "It was established that the high-intensity runway lights, the approach lights, and the VASIS of the runway closed to traffic (23 Left) were inoperativeall the lights for the runway in use (23 Right) were operating.". 72 of the 88 people on board, plus 1 person on the ground, were killed. He - paragraph added (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.214.74 at 20:21, 19 December 2019, The ICAO publication doesn't correlate sounds from the CVR to events as they are happening but the CVR recording of the final moments of this accident is probably the most impressionable record of the event the general public has access to and it may be unclear how the accident was unfolding with just the audio. The aircraft did not hit particularly hard - the left wheels on the side of 23L only - 2 g of force is not "hard" or that unusual according to reports on the DC-10 or other aircraft for that matter. ", This page was last edited on 3 May 2022, at 01:09. In less than 10 years Western Airlines would no longer exist. . The entire CVR is not easily accessable. Western Airlines Flight 2605 was an international scheduled passenger flight from Los Angeles, California, to Mexico City, Mexico. The Spanish language page is similar to the English version. - para break moved, + para amended, by 173.120.246.108 (unsigned contribution), at 20:30, 25 December 2019, - section created at 22:08, 25 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.246.108. The article doesn't mention how many of the fatalities were crew; I presume from the description that all three pilots perished. Bingo. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. After the aircraft initially touched down, it continued along the ground Wow!! The final moments of the pilots will make your hair stand on end. The May 25, 1979 American Airlines DC-10 crash involved the separation of the left engine from the left wing and the shredding of hydraulic lines with it. All of them involved pilot fatigue, either from I had to read it again to make clear they were to the left of 23L also!! As a lay person with a recent fascination with this crash, I'm assuming this was the truck collision by the noises on the CVR. Most of the public is or was under the impression that safety would never be negatively impacted by sweeping "free market" legislation. Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos. for about 400 feet on the main landing gear. Posts: 6938 . This is not a touchdown this is the aircraft being destroyed. - the eternal DI, Western was founded by a guy who flew for the RAF in WWI. . The event is the third-deadliest aviation accident on Mexican soil after the crashes of two Boeing 727s: the 1969 crash of Mexicana de Aviacin Flight 704 and that of Mexicana de Aviacin Flight 940 in 1986. Flying Magazine is not a credible source. Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.120.246.108 (talk) 22:08, 25 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply], - section created at 22:37, 29 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.184.130. My dad has mentioned to me several times this accident. Is it not discussed in the reliable sources? on it, except than the official one. We thank you for your support and hope you'll join the largest aviation community on the web. accident had to be one of human factors. The right wing obviously was damaged. This explanation is not addressed by our article as it stands. I replied to one post below that had the time of day wrong concerning the accident. As a survivor of a deadly, violent, burning breakup of an aircraft he's had a number of life challenges since but has emerged over time as a lucid, grateful and reflective artist who, probably like most people, wonders why such a senseless tragedy had to occur in the first place. done flyin'." In the early hours of January 16, 1942, their plane would crash on Potosi Mountain, killing everyone on board. The CVR may in fact be missing information. sition to the parallel operating runway at an airport with a Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior, Cargo Aircraft Readers are encouraged to actually read the article for themselves and decide whether Peter Garrison is convincing or a presumptuous story teller. 1 mois de voyages illimits. For additional details, refer to our Privacy Policy. Its pilots loved the plane. 32 Avenue Du Gresivaudan, Meylan, Isere, 38700. Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries, Airport Overviews Presumably this is the point of destruction of the plane. Lombard wanted to fly. Its a red herring to say they landed on the wrong runway. Privacy Policy. (?) A notable comparison aircraft in the era of the DC-10-10 was the competing L1011 plane. ground and simultaneously struck i dump truck loaded with gravel. tion was a concern in all accident. In the video you hear the last screams of the pilots. Props and jets from the good old days, Flight Decks - paragraph split at 01:17, 1 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.15.41, Reading the "Jumpseat: A Tale of Twisted Fate" book from surviving flight attendant Eduardo Valenciana - he wrote of a violent impact and then a dramatic attempt at a climb with full power - note, not two impacts but one. Required to reach a conclusion? The Originals Boutique, Htel Les Trois Roses, Grenoble Meyla. The final moments of the pilots will make your hair stand on end. It's a plane which certainly has a divided history. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpQWYdByNSg, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1DlBRS0PiE. In that accident investigators warned of the danger of trusting ILS signals without checking raw height/distance data. By logging into your account, you agree to our. Ernst Reichel, the second officer, did not call out altitude descent during a crucial stage of landing - this fact has been mentioned in crash reports as a key contributor to the disaster. A part of the CVR is widely available online. As an example, there is an immediate inconsistencies about what the tower is told the crew about approach lights and the ICAO report on the condition of those lights.[/quote]. I would think so. Presumably the "Flying Magazine" article abridged content from 'official' reports and other sources. TNVC/NGI Giveaway: 15 winners with over $7000 worth of prizes!! A well known problem is the potential for erroneous glideslope and/or localizer indications caused by movement of aircraft or equipment through ILS critical areas. - paragraph amended at 23:09, 25 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.246.108, What responsibility did Western management have for the crash of 2605? What else would Well, yeah, but what if they thought the runway they had visual contact with was the correct runway, 23R? 2012-06-29, 13:43. as the cause of each accident. I can't remember where I read the article, but it was very interesting. The sad thing about this accident is that not one of Most of them are weak premise. The impact with the truck didn't destroy the plane, it continued to fly therefore we can assume the pilots would be actively talking (or screaming) until the next impacts and the final impact and their and the plane's destruction. Pilot Gilbert got on the power (100%) before the impact with the truck and after Reichel calmly called to go around after everyone agreed they were at 23L. Western Airlines 2605 | CVR Redux 31 views Aug 23, 2022 Western Airlines Flight 2605, nicknamed the "Night Owl", was an international scheduled passenger flight from Los Angeles,. The widely recognized, deeply systemic problems of control by market forces means any article is going to be edited to surrender to those market forces. Cookie Notice More importantly pilot errors occured. Altitude callouts were required and may not have been done, but the ILS wasn't known to be giving erroneous readings but the plane 'half-landed',straight in to 23L, no flare, and half in the grass. AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types. Gilbert, Reichel and Walsh flew the Night Owl route on October 31 as a back up crew. ", "The first officer didn't do his job and the Captain didn't make him", "ALPA's reasoning seems to be that a certain sloppiness is inevitable in airline crews flying late-night flights. They had "stayed on the correct flight path to Runway 23 Right for most of the time between the outer marker "Metro Eco" and [the] Airport, and only deviated to the runway closed to traffic (23 Left) when at a height of (600 feet) above the ground during .. final approach": it looks as if they were intending to maintain a lateral separation from the ILS path (to 23L) so as to keep them in line to come straight in to 23R. Aircraft flying government officials, Helicopters Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos. The sound and tone of his exclamation is one of complete shock. Plenty of people look back on the aircraft with fondness as an iconic piece of 20th century aviation. Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin, Night Photos I replied to one post below that had the time of day wrong concerning the accident. According to the research done by Dr. Zeller and McNorton, at the (The paper is easy to source online). I denoised the CVR so you can hear the voices better. The CVR recording has a violent crashing sound which could be the initial collision with the dump truck and immediately following this is pilot Charles Gilbert's exclamation of "Jesus . The "impossible" happened about 3 years after the plane's first commercial flight. RE: Western 2605 In MEX - New Pics #8819177 BY thegoldenargosy - Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:22 am One of the flight attendants survived and is still flying for DL in SLC. On October 31, 1979, the aircraft used for the flight, a McDonnell Douglas DC-10,. and our Views from inside the cockpit, Aircraft Cabins The violent crashing is clearly heard. Both military and civil versions, Blimps / Airships on this tragedy: I think there's a CVR on Airdisaster.com. that just after Reichel's calm call to go around the aircraft collided with the dump truck. American Eagle flight 4184, an ATR 72 flying from IND to ORD, crashed in Northern Indiana on October 31, 1994, which was 25 years ago yesterday. Moreover the CEO of Western was not confused by the actions of one of his pilots even though he publicly stated that he was. Western Airlines 2605 is a crash that sticks out in my mind as one of the most mysterious accidents of all time, as comparatively little about the accident itself has been released to the public. I'd like to reply to yours as well. Accident, incident and crash related photos, Air to Air All Rights Reserved. Flight 2605 remains the deadliest air accident to have occurred in Mexico City. The Douglas DC10, even before 1979 suffered multiple hull loses and even for a time, held the accolade of being the aircraft involved in the deadliest air disaster to have occurred at that time. This would certainly result in limited to no control over the aircraft. Our guests praise the breakfast and the helpful staff in . Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior, Cargo Aircraft "There is also the possibility that the ILS signal could have been unstable due At that point, the right main gear lifted off the Most reports I've read seem to state that Pilot Gilbert saw the truck. This wreckage continued aft, tearing away all I can't remember where I read the article, but it was very interesting. Presumably the incident that FA Valenciana wrote about in his book (incidently changing the names of the pilots which is probably for legal reasons but not so much that you don't know who he is talking about) where Gilbert is yelling at Reichel would be captured with context by the CVR. From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm. 9 seconds later the CVR ends, or at least what is available on youtube ends. Aircraft type McDonnell Douglas DC-10-10Operator Western AirlinesRegistration N903WAFlight origin Los Angeles Int'l AirportLos Angeles, California, United St. Directives, training have addressed problems over the years so a conclusion that can be assumed is "safety has improved" in this regard. board. Mark Lincoln (talk) 00:45, 2 February 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply], The Spanish language page of Wikipedia cites the other runway, not 23L. The concern was that both the deal and tourism would be negatively impacted if Mexico took most of the blame for the deadly accident. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. Pilot fatigue has also been mentioned. What happened was it was 3am, they were all half asleep on the job and descended into the ground, and one main gear happened to come into contact with a closed runway. " According to the ICAO circular, max power was applied prior to collision with the truck. Pictures of great freighter aircraft, Government Aircraft However, this could very well have been the initial touchdown. This is incorrect information from the control tower at Mexico City (assuming the ICAO circular Section 1.8.2 is accurate). Walsh's preparedness was unknown. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Was it likely that they didn't have the resources to take safety in to account? The hydraulic system may have been destroyed. Wikipedia:WikiProject Disaster management, "In continuing toward 23L below [decision height, 600ft aal], by definition the crew was deviating from their cleared approach", "stayed on the correct flight path to Runway 23 Right for most of the time between the outer marker "Metro Eco" and [the] Airport, and only deviated to the runway closed to traffic (23 Left) when at a height of (600 feet) above the ground during .. final approach", https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a205115.pdf, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Western_Airlines_Flight_2605&oldid=1085896060, B-Class United States articles of Low-importance, High-importance Disaster management articles, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0. Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin, Night Photos McDonnell Douglas made three more hydraulic system design changes following this accident. A July 19th, 1989 United DC-10 crash was caused by an engine failure which damaged the hydraulic system and reduced control to a point that the pilots could utilize only engine power to prepare the aircraft for an emergency landing. I don't know how this can be verified but perhaps it is correct. SquisherDa (talk) 10:16, 24 October 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply], And, thinking of sources - do we have the CVR? Making things even more confusing the recorder was apparently pierced and an erase mechanism was reported to have been briefly actuated. But this may already have long been determined to be the left wheel touchdown - but I haven't read a report specifically stating this yet. ATC: Can you see the approach light to the left? after the truck collision. Both military and civil versions, Blimps / Airships that all is lost after the right tail plane and elevator were nearly severed along with the loss of the upper right hand section of wing flaps. As Flight 2605 approached Mexico City International Airport, air traffic controllers cleared it for an instrument approach using the ILS of Runway 23L, with an expected landing runway of 23R. Western Airlines 2605 is a crash that sticks out in my mind as one of the most mysterious accidents of all time, as comparatively little about the accident itself has been released to the public. Audio recording of Western Airlines Flight 2605 CVR. Other entries are my opinions as well. He seems to remember that soon after this the planes nose rose and the engines were screaming. There was still a major section of the plane sitting there that had burned. and our This is what I have gathered this far: Some forum posts from 2004-2005 claiming there is "a wealth of material" on google. along with what sounds to be "turn left." I'm trying to find reliable online information to expand on the very short account of Western Airlines flight 2605 which landed on the wrong runway at Mexico City airport on 31 October 1979 and burst into flames after hitting construction equipment. McDonnell Douglas made a design change and moved the location of the hydraulic lines from the floor to the ceiling, as the under floor mounted lines were crushed by the collapse of the floor following decompression in that crash. per night. Ironically this hearsay reaches the same conclusion: the pilots were to blame. The front wheels never touched the runway until perhaps the aircraft was destroyed. check out the. Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.120.156.105 (talk) 22:49, 11 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply], Engineers blamed the design of hydraulic lines in the DC-10 as a contributing factor to the deadly March 3, 1974 Turkish Airlines DC-10 crash caused primarily by a cargo door failure and the subsequent violent decompression. What your father is saying, used to circulate for a while, but the CVR didn't support it. Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe, Classic Airliners The ICAO report does not mention the ILS as any possible contributor. surface altitude of over 7,000 feet. This penetration came in contact with the erasure circuit sending a momentary electrical impulse to the bulk eraser, causing a wedge- shaped segment of the tape to be erased.". Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft, Special Paint Schemes Maybe if the pilot saw obstructions ahead. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Airliners.net is the leading community for discovering and sharing high-quality aviation photography. [3] The single weather condition noted most often with flight 2605 is heavy fog. Crew fatigue is believe to have been a contributing cause. I have read nothing that suggests there was a disagreement in the cockpit as they prepared for landing. the distant horizon-c-at least for air carrier investigations after initial touch down, when all engines were increased to a little over 100 On the other hand, it had developed a reputation among passengers and the media due to its string of high profile incidents. We'll never know because of the damage to the CVR: "The possibility exists that the callouts were made but erased in that portion of the CVR tape; however, it is highly unlikely that this was accomplished. This contributor has read transcripts that start at and include the first signifigant contacts in Mexican airspace but I do not have access to the entire CVR which presumably is near 3 hours in length.
